tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post3695129826593508684..comments2023-07-15T04:20:16.543-05:00Comments on Almost Diamonds: What Is Race Good For?Stephanie Zvanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-63994617940926064132010-01-11T15:51:14.097-06:002010-01-11T15:51:14.097-06:00Stephanie,
Excellent post - clearly presented. Ap...Stephanie,<br />Excellent post - clearly presented. Apparently no one wishes to spell it out, but of course, you only need "race" if you need to justify the perpetuation of your "racial" privilege. And in order to make your "race" scienterrific you apparently need to keep mangling two other words - "genetic" and "innate." Whatever about the dictionary meanings of those words, their intent in this type of discourse is simple - "Can't change, won't change, you can't make me change."Scotlynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18252894052638140589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-38922558876630950702008-10-17T17:24:00.000-05:002008-10-17T17:24:00.000-05:00Thanks, Will!Thanks, Will!Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-73147810062659470832008-10-17T14:06:00.000-05:002008-10-17T14:06:00.000-05:00Excellent post!Excellent post!Will Shetterlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08539053268352597627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-79043436628347988282008-10-14T12:41:00.000-05:002008-10-14T12:41:00.000-05:00Mythusmage, issues with connecting stature to gene...Mythusmage, issues with connecting stature to genetics aside (and they really can't be set aside), you appear to be doing with that set of traits very much what the researchers did with genetic markers: only pointing to the bits of the data that appear to support you, while leaving out whole populations in between.<BR/><BR/>Laurent, Greg left a <A HREF="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/10/the_nature_of_the_racist_conve.php#c1155379" REL="nofollow">response</A> on your cross-posted comment. I won't try to improve on it.Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-63789589726543741462008-10-14T05:22:00.000-05:002008-10-14T05:22:00.000-05:00Hum... I think I have a different take on this ver...Hum... I think I have a different take on this very complex subject.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure arguing down to the genetic details of "races" is anything but a slippery slope.<BR/><BR/>Let me emphasize a few things:<BR/>- even in subspecies in natura there's geneflow, and genetic differenciation is only and will always only be a statistical property of a set of populations. (so there's nothing in my opinion about the 'continuum argument' that is biologically relevant, but an invitation to question where limits have to be placed, and even for wild life studies this is not always a very interesting question, scientifically speaking).<BR/>- human population genomics is only at its beginning, and there's nothing that could prevent us to find out that there's some genetical (since there's already historical and cultural boundaries to human populations) basis allowing to spot different human lineages (be it close to old human taxinomies or be it radically different from this perspective).<BR/><BR/>Given the possibility that human genetic makeups would turn such results, my point would be something like this: if there were any biological reason to classify human among different 'races', whatever it might be, would it follow that we ought to be racist?<BR/><BR/>The answer is no!, of course. Even if humanity were consisting of several species there would be no obligation for specism.<BR/><BR/>This is in my mind one of the greatest danger of genetic arguments with regard to the issue: it is irrelevant whatever the science is telling us. We decide and this is most important, that we don't care about whatever the other human being is, phenotypically, genotypically, culturally, and so on (the same apply to gender, sexual behaviour, political opinion etc).<BR/><BR/>I think it is important to be affirmative about this (I see no reason to turn racist even if there were actual biological arguments for races). Anything biological is weak with regard to what I decide to hold as values.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-75089076602507416742008-10-14T03:00:00.000-05:002008-10-14T03:00:00.000-05:00There are populations with certain physical traits...There are populations with certain physical traits that set them apart. The Australian Aborigine is classified as having a robust skeleton. The people of Ethiopia and Somalia are tall and slender. A combination of traits found as far afield as the Trobriand Islander and the Aizi of Cote de Ivorie. Probably the most famous example are the Masai of Kenya. As a matter of fact, author Harry Turtledove is well known for his great height and slender build. Harry is also Jewish, and it is possible his build has do to a bit of "race mixing" that occurred back when the Israelites were tussling with the Amalekites. According to a minority view the Amalekites were an Ethiopic people who warred with the tribe of Judah, and may even have been cannibalistic. By this theory Harry gets his height and build from some hypothetical Amalekite ancestry.mythusmagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10458869083534878283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-60518945534459131892008-10-13T22:54:00.000-05:002008-10-13T22:54:00.000-05:00Will do, Stephanie. Thanks.Will do, Stephanie. Thanks.Alan Rudyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05814965319203398069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-76650656002768191922008-10-13T21:27:00.000-05:002008-10-13T21:27:00.000-05:00Alan, paying attention to this election is certain...Alan, paying attention to this election is certainly not ignoring the issue. In any way.<BR/><BR/>Seriously, if you (or your students) start blogging on this more publicly, please let me know. You obviously have plenty to contribute to the conversation.Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-38439797294245679342008-10-13T21:11:00.000-05:002008-10-13T21:11:00.000-05:00Ahhh, my blog... I'll have to think more about tha...Ahhh, my blog... I'll have to think more about that... I've been pretty distracted by the election, family and working with my students (and their assignments), and it started off as an utterly reactive set of posts about the infuriating tendency of the NYTimes to embrace sociobiology and David Brooks being disingenuous. I had hopes of doing more with it, perhaps I need more of the patience and perseverance you all have been practicing... and an end to the job application season. Thanks for the suggestion tho.Alan Rudyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05814965319203398069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-74624119809160193762008-10-13T20:37:00.000-05:002008-10-13T20:37:00.000-05:00Alan, you're preaching to the choir. I hope that o...Alan, you're preaching to the choir. I hope that one of the advantages to me putting this all down in one place is that I can devote more attention to other matters.<BR/><BR/>What are the chances that your blog will become active again, discussing some of this?Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-55972232491489957332008-10-13T12:22:00.000-05:002008-10-13T12:22:00.000-05:00Hey Greg/Stephanie, I spend a good bit of time blo...Hey Greg/Stephanie, I spend a good bit of time blowing up racial categories in my sociology classes. At the same time, of course - and I'm sure like you two - I insist that race's lack of any biological validity has tragically not meant that reduced an iota of race's consequences for socially and economically oppressed minorities.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps sadly, I have found that even the video "Race: The Power of an Illusion" - which shows the ways that similarities in mitochondrial DNA cut strongly across "races" tends to reinforce the placement of the debate about race within the purview of biology and I have to take a strong social constructionist kind of position... something I tend not to do. In this kind of instance, tho, W.I. Thomas' assertion: "If a man (society - APR) believes the situation to be real, it is real in its consequences", seems to hold altogether too true given the historical power of racism in structuring modern society/ies.Alan Rudyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05814965319203398069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-2083573306686114902008-10-13T08:37:00.000-05:002008-10-13T08:37:00.000-05:00Alan:Let me ad this: Europeans are very badly beha...Alan:<BR/><BR/>Let me ad this: Europeans are very badly behaved when it comes to race, aside from politically or socially. Roughly and oversimplified: Depending on how you generate racial categories using various data, Europeans are almost always more difficult to distinguish from either African or Asian than, say, Africans and Asians are in relation to each other. More interestingly, depending on the starting point, Europeans will cluster with either Africans or Asians.<BR/><BR/>This lack of the data's 'ability' to be consistent when building models such as those trees you see in so many papers underscores the vagueness and lack of credibility of racial categories in humans.Greg Ladenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03973115018538144984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-8556203143795064202008-10-13T07:44:00.000-05:002008-10-13T07:44:00.000-05:00Thanks, Peggy. I'll freely admit I didn't feel all...Thanks, Peggy. I'll freely admit I didn't feel all that patient, but I did want to know whether anyone would come up with answers if I kept asking the same questions.Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-9256579951407882712008-10-13T00:51:00.000-05:002008-10-13T00:51:00.000-05:00You and Greg were so patient to keep explaining th...You and Greg were so patient to keep explaining the same things over and over. It seemed like people's definitions of "race" kept shifting. As soon as it clear that the way the term race is used here in the US is not biologically supported, the commenters trotted out examples of reproductively isolated human populations. But when intelligence came up, then it shifted back to "black" vs. "white". It makes my head hurt.Peggy Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18360669414917755737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-18208893548390271482008-10-12T22:54:00.000-05:002008-10-12T22:54:00.000-05:00Very true, Alan. I was trying for the big picture ...Very true, Alan. I was trying for the big picture and didn't go into depth on how big a problem the idea is. The more you break it down, the sillier it gets. Similarly, most of the points I make above could be broken down further. There were a number of people commenting on Greg's original post who did just that, and I strongly recommend reading the whole comment thread there.Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-79178851004605726322008-10-12T22:47:00.000-05:002008-10-12T22:47:00.000-05:00Perhaps I didn't read your excellent post quite cl...Perhaps I didn't read your excellent post quite closely enough and this is only elaborating something you noted, but it seems to me that the continuum/color appeal is even more problematic than you suggest. The visible range in human beings pretty much starts at one point and ends at another... but there is a very problematic question that'd have to be asked about race as a similar continuum: which race would we start with and towards which other race would the continuum trend before ending on it?<BR/><BR/>Could Asians and Indigenous Americans possibly be placed "between" Africans and Northern Europeans (because we're gonna hafta cull those swarthy Mediterraneans to keep Whites White enough, no)? What scale, defended how, could we possibly be talking about here? Wouldn't Whites have to - in some way - be said to "come from" or "follow after" Asians and Americans...? Yikes, it boggles the mind.Alan Rudyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05814965319203398069noreply@blogger.com