tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post7193928333711702303..comments2023-07-15T04:20:16.543-05:00Comments on Almost Diamonds: True EquivalenceStephanie Zvanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-54375810746121320812011-04-30T21:53:59.467-05:002011-04-30T21:53:59.467-05:00J. J., if you are going to group a bunch of people...J. J., if you are going to group a bunch of people under one name in order to sneer at them, you'd really better be able to talk about the <i>whole</i> group you put under that name. If you're going to make it one of your complaints that they misrepresent the people they talk about, you'd better be able to represent them very accurately. You are either not willing or not able to do either, yet you've spent thousands of words, spread across the internet, on spreading your inaccurate and hypocritical complaints. <br /><br />You're doing it here, too, in your "not welcome" comment. I specified precisely the <i>behavior</i> that wasn't welcome. The only way that translates to you not being welcome is if you find it impossible to be honest and act in the way you demand others act. In that case, yes, I think it's probably best if you are cut off from this discussion wherever it occurs. You need a new obsession and a new hobby.Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-68332603745590687282011-04-30T15:48:13.189-05:002011-04-30T15:48:13.189-05:00"Figure out how to describe their objections ..."Figure out how to describe their objections accurately or go away."<br /><br />Before you presume that I have mischaracterized the New Atheists, I suggest that you read Orac's old post, "<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/05/the_neville_chamberlain_school_of_evolut.php" rel="nofollow">The Neville Chamberlain School of Evolutionists, revisited one (hopefully) last time</a>." You should at least see where I'm coming from on the "appeaser" stuff, and why I'm pretty sour about the New Atheists in general.<br /><br />Obviously, I'm no longer welcome here, so I'll "go away" now, just as you asked.J. J. Ramseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00763792476799485687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-89854614036827161852011-04-29T23:00:31.621-05:002011-04-29T23:00:31.621-05:00So not a meme. I call forced meme, Glendon.
Not t...So not a meme. I call forced meme, Glendon.<br /><br />Not that it's a bad one... sock puppets suck.<br /><br />http://thebuddhaisnotserious.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/polly.jpgJason Thibeaulthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01595673310069068735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-79807346135079040892011-04-29T20:29:50.809-05:002011-04-29T20:29:50.809-05:00I agree with Polly-O!I agree with Polly-O!Glendon Mellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03582347493421110738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-52281357783156211622011-04-29T19:20:05.672-05:002011-04-29T19:20:05.672-05:00"Okay. I "demand" that atheists'..."Okay. I "demand" that atheists' depictions of their opponents actually be correct." --J. J. Ramsey<br /><br />J. J., you're done here, at least until you can provide the "New Atheists" the same thing you demand of them. Until then, you're pointless. Figure out how to describe their objections accurately or go away.<br /><br />And seriously, I addressed the leadership question yesterday: http://almostdiamonds.blogspot.com/2011/04/taking-it-downhill.htmlStephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-66954073258040650362011-04-29T17:50:28.239-05:002011-04-29T17:50:28.239-05:00"J. J., your argument was that it isn't a..."J. J., your argument was that it isn't appropriate to say that accommodationists are putting burdens on atheists that they don't put on others"<br /><br />What?! You are reading way too much out of a three-sentence paragraph about how accommodationists don't necessarily treat the religious with kid gloves.<br /><br />And really, this talk about putting accommodationists putting burdens on atheists doesn't make a lick of sense, at least if we're talking about the atheists who are already acting as activists. They've already put the burden on themselves to better the lot of other atheists. The only question is how that's done.<br /><br />I don't see how it is burdening to atheist activists to insist that they <i>not</i> portray other activists as "Uncle Toms" or "appeasers" for making common cause with the moderate religious on certain issues. I don't see how it is burdening to atheist activists to insist that they <i>not</i> define "neutrality" for the NCSE/BCSE as not telling the religious that they don't have to give up all their religious beliefs to accept evolution. I certainly don't see how it is burdening to atheist activists to insist that they not imply that religious believers are stupid or crazy.<br /><br />Indeed, discussing "confrontational" atheists is misleading because the problem is <i>not</i> merely that they are confrontational.J. J. Ramseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00763792476799485687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-56011507605401063472011-04-29T16:48:38.930-05:002011-04-29T16:48:38.930-05:00J. J., your argument was that it isn't appropr...J. J., your argument was that it isn't appropriate to say that accommodationists are putting burdens on atheists that they don't put on others, including both themselves and the religious people whose opinions they are trying to shift. You pointed out that accommodationists do treat some religious people the same way, namely "creationists, fundamentalists, and other denialists." <br /><br />Are you saying that these groups are <i>not</i> equivalent for the purposes of how accommodationists should treat them? For that matter, would you like to find me some accommodationists or mainstream religious folk who have <i>not</i> engaged in sloppy thinking or demonized their opponents in discussions over religion? <br /><br />The question at hand is why it's appropriate to lump confrontational atheists as a group and treat them the way they're treated by those calling for them behave differently. Remember that what you're saying is being read in that context.Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-34662428188793272772011-04-29T16:15:15.056-05:002011-04-29T16:15:15.056-05:00All right, let's do it your way for the sake o...All right, let's do it your way for the sake of argument. Please point to a prominent "New Atheist" who has said something very mean to someone other than a prominent religious person about their beliefs. Do include a link, kindly.<br /><br />And no fair pointing at anyone who criticizes religion in general. That's not criticizing the person, that's criticizing their beliefs.<br /><br />I suspect you'll be able to come up with a ready example, and I suspect I'll be able to come up with a ready example of an accomodationist telling someone they crossed a line by making fun of a belief rather than a specific person.<br /><br />When we've gone tit for tat for a bit, I might be able to show you in the context of this conversation where we're coming from in this, and where I feel you've got us, the movement, and the whole argument wrong.Jason Thibeaulthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01595673310069068735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-14727953800001991692011-04-29T15:58:11.721-05:002011-04-29T15:58:11.721-05:00It's actually a completely false characterizat...It's actually a completely false characterization of my stance. Jason had mischaracterized so-called accommodationists as generally treating the religious with "kid gloves," and I pointed out that this was a half-truth. To suggest that pointing this out is somehow an implied comparison (let alone an equivalence) between New Atheists and fundamentalists is a stretch.<br /><br />This is not to say that I don't think that New Atheists and religious fundamentalists don't have some things in common, such as demonizing opponents or sloppy thinking. However, if I wanted to discuss that, I'd show examples of atheists behaving poorly (which I did <a href="http://www.irrationalrationalist.com/home/criticisms-of-atheists/meandering-thoughts-on-the-phrase-fundamentalist-atheist-" rel="nofollow">way back when</a>, FWIW).J. J. Ramseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00763792476799485687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-90183536078733449042011-04-29T14:55:21.099-05:002011-04-29T14:55:21.099-05:00I think it's a fair characterization of your s...I think it's a fair characterization of your stance, but the quotes are there now so everyone can compare.Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-67956299405361528192011-04-29T14:43:39.969-05:002011-04-29T14:43:39.969-05:00It would be nice if you quoted me instead of makin...It would be nice if you quoted me instead of making a straw man what I had said.J. J. Ramseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00763792476799485687noreply@blogger.com