tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post1651158584318101936..comments2023-07-15T04:20:16.543-05:00Comments on Almost Diamonds: All That and a SkepticStephanie Zvanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-73075229369634254662010-04-16T06:14:25.739-05:002010-04-16T06:14:25.739-05:00Oooooohhhh, word salad, yum.Oooooohhhh, word salad, yum.Adamohttp://werejustpassingthru.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-52391045402869414972010-04-16T03:26:06.866-05:002010-04-16T03:26:06.866-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-74701515823679161992010-04-14T20:26:19.745-05:002010-04-14T20:26:19.745-05:00"Truth" - whatever kind - is a hard thin..."Truth" - whatever kind - is a hard thing to pin down. What I observe and think is truth varies from what you (generic) observe, etc. What I think also derives from how/what I feel, thus imposing a degree of subjectivity into different truths. Is there an absolute truth? Perhaps, say, mathematically: two plus two...<br /><br />Gravity seems to be a truth, but it's a variable one and it took a special kind of observer to pin it down for the rest of us. When we wander out further into particle physics, what is currently claimed to be truth is so far from observable and intuitive as to render it unbelievable. <br /><br />Of course, truth doesn't need belief (nor vice versa), but that's where we start stumbling all over ourselves. As a species, we seem to be programmed for belief, and that even extends into definitions and practices of skepticism. And that seems to be the point at which you started this post. Belief begets rigidity, rigidity begets doctrine, doctrine begets disputes among folks who actually agree with each other.Adamohttp://werejustpassingthru.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-10347674786833993102010-04-14T16:17:41.721-05:002010-04-14T16:17:41.721-05:00Hmm, I got so caught up in trying to think through...Hmm, I got so caught up in trying to think through what I was saying about values that I forgot to bring it back around. I think that valuing truth works much the same way as other fundamental values in this respect. You have the truth that not necessarily easily discoverable and is complicated and somewhat contradictory if not understood in full, and you have the "truth" that imposes itself on our senses in an uncomplicated way. And then you have the "truth" that is so clearly self-evident in all respects that whatever goes on in someone's head at a particular moment is obviously true, even if it contradicts what was thought a minute ago or will be thought a minute from now or even the basic evidence of the senses.<br /><br />I don't think we disagree on this particularly. I did want to bring that more basic difference in values into the discussion, though.Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-77480389076743372152010-04-14T15:48:16.837-05:002010-04-14T15:48:16.837-05:00Stehanie, I certainly understand the distinction b...Stehanie, I certainly understand the distinction between values and aproaches to understanding.<br /><br />But the difference between, say, a Republican and a progressive Democrat in values is LESS than in approach to understanding. <br /><br />For example, suffering should be minimized and freedom is good .... it would not be hard to get a Republican and a Democrat to agree to those.<br /><br />But then what happens next? What happens next is very much a difference in approach.<br /><br />If you hang around with political activists who are in the middle of political activity, you don't often hear "OMG, that thing Palin/Bachmann/McCain or whomever said is so against what I fundementally belive, value wise" but you CONSANTLY hear "OMG< that thing Palin/etc. said is so STUPID. It makes NO SENSE. (and so on)."<br /><br />Prorgessive liberals are self consciously rational thinkiers. There may be times when values interfere. When values inverfere with a progressive liberal's rationality, you will often hear something like "Well, this may not be entirely rational, but I still want.... xyz" <br /> <br />You won't hear honest, accurate sentences that use any form of the word "rational" coming out of Republicans. It is simply not how they operate. <br /><br />On purpose, by the way, in case anyone was wondering. Which is partly why we find framing so icky, yes?Greg Ladennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-46900596315975931432010-04-14T14:56:12.901-05:002010-04-14T14:56:12.901-05:00Greg, you used the word "pure." I don...Greg, you used the word "pure." I don't disagree with you, for some values of "atheist," but I'm not sure the discussion helps here.<br /><br />As for politics, I think you're looking at two sets of values. The set you're talking about is indeed informed by skepticism and science. However, drilling down through those two layers, you come to another layer of more fundamental values, basic beliefs about what life should be like: suffering should be minimized or freedom is good, for example. <br /><br />We run into a problem with these basic values, because we all tend to talk about them in the same overarching way. There's a generally socially acceptable set of values to have, and we think we have them and those who disagree with us don't. <br /><br />You've discussed the various levels of metacognition before. These values look rather different at the different levels of metacognition, in scope if nothing else. Absolute freedom and maximal limited freedom are fundamentally different ideals, but they're basically "freedom is good" viewed at different levels. And from those different starting points, following the evidence leads to different places.<br /><br />Not that everyone follows the evidence or even values what they think they value. There are plenty of people who say suffering is bad at the same time they say suffering is good for the soul/character/what have you.Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-755974674140402702010-04-14T13:08:27.799-05:002010-04-14T13:08:27.799-05:00OK, my official comment on this:
If a tree falls ...OK, my official comment on this:<br /><br />If a tree falls in the woods, no one will hear it, no matter how loud it is. <br /><br />However, the best way to cut lumber is not to burn it down.<br /><br />A bit of marketing, getting to the mind via the heart, is good and necessary but giving away the show with appeasement, etc. is bad.<br /><br />Moreover, much of the fight over how to do this has in the past taken up too much energy.<br /><br />Finally, I seriously object to what has developed as a dichotomization of various value systems and skepticism. Most of my values are based on skepticism yet they look like and can be labeled in the tradtional ways as well as anyone else's values can be. A movement CAN be based entirely on skepticism, and many are based largely on it but are imperfect. But, skeptics are also imperfect.<br /><br />Sorry, but a person who is not an atheist is not a pure skeptic. A person who is not liberal and progressive in their ideals can only be a skeptic in limited ways. Fundy repulbican yahoos can only be sketpical about a few things and must be in denial of rationality for much of the time.<br /><br />These things are connected. It IS a progressive value to be a scientific sketpic. It IS a liberal value to be a scientific skeptic. And, the modern Atheist movement has adopted, by and large, the idea of being a scientific skeptic.Greg Ladenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04857616630819182647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-64708459447250468412010-04-14T12:03:35.665-05:002010-04-14T12:03:35.665-05:00"We can win people's minds with arguments..."We can win people's minds with arguments, facts and logic; but we can't even begin to win their hearts unless we show them ours."<br /><br />Sounds great, but I'm afraid that there are strong arguments that we win people's hearts first, then their minds. Oh wait, maybe thats what you are saying.<br /><br />Damn.. I promised to not read this until after C-2!!!. <br /><br />brb.Greg Ladenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04857616630819182647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-33512608038661453922010-04-14T10:25:18.859-05:002010-04-14T10:25:18.859-05:00I already tweeted that, but you can RT if you feel...I already tweeted that, but you can RT if you feel like it. Just look up @Skepdude. I just started following you. If the rest of your entries are of the quality of this one, you'll make my great skeptical find of the day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-24881385542766800122010-04-14T10:18:28.454-05:002010-04-14T10:18:28.454-05:00I am so stealing that last line wholesale. :)I am so stealing that last line wholesale. :)Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-35577807563037616572010-04-14T09:37:02.495-05:002010-04-14T09:37:02.495-05:00Great entry, right on the point I think. I persona...Great entry, right on the point I think. I personally fall into the camp that thinks that a purely skeptical view may not be in our best interest for the long run, at least from a PR point of view. If we want to break into the public's attention and hearts we must, in my opinion, show them what we are for, besides the scientific method and facts. There already exists a negative perception of skeptics as cynics, as cold automatron robots, and I personally find it paramount to show our sense of morals and that we have highly evolved ethics, because that will also highlight that skepticism does not come at the expense of our humanity; that being a skeptic is not the other option, that it is in addition to the other things that people already are. <br /><br />We can win people's minds with arguments, facts and logic; but we can't even begin to win their hearts unless we show them ours. <br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/yd9armtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com