tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post8865878559845717509..comments2023-07-15T04:20:16.543-05:00Comments on Almost Diamonds: How to Hijack a ThreadStephanie Zvanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-20645580892124778862009-07-02T04:46:29.059-05:002009-07-02T04:46:29.059-05:00imma hijack ur thread... lol!imma hijack ur thread... lol!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-38815386415174244592009-02-05T18:17:00.000-06:002009-02-05T18:17:00.000-06:00MH, without access and training, I'm not diagnosin...MH, without access and training, I'm not diagnosing anything beyond "fucked up."Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-89596206030871512442009-02-04T12:01:00.000-06:002009-02-04T12:01:00.000-06:00Anonymous wrote: "I'm still reading through that t...Anonymous wrote: <I>"I'm still reading through that thread, and sweet jesus, this guy has whatever mental disorder my father does, exactly."</I><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder" REL="nofollow">Narcissistic personality disorder</A>, perhaps?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-41613042508928573082008-12-16T20:05:00.000-06:002008-12-16T20:05:00.000-06:00Anonymous, no apologies necessary. That's a lot to...Anonymous, no apologies necessary. That's a lot to think about, but it's definitely worth it. Thank you.Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-80520438275130631132008-12-16T18:05:00.000-06:002008-12-16T18:05:00.000-06:00I'm still reading through that thread, and sweet j...I'm still reading through that thread, and sweet jesus, this guy has whatever mental disorder my father does, exactly. Notice how many times Dave lists his own qualifications, awards, proof of his popularity, etc. etc.. How many times does he say he's a nice person? It'd be interesting to count those and then see how many self-compliments each of the other posters give themselves.<BR/><BR/>And he's definitely designated himself as the center of the discussion, as if he's participating from a wiser perspective than everyone else.<BR/><BR/>Holy fuck, this is creeping me out. I'm done now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-36554574765555758982008-12-16T17:17:00.000-06:002008-12-16T17:17:00.000-06:00Ugh; sorry for the long rant! I hope you get some...Ugh; sorry for the long rant! I hope you get something useful out of it. And be glad that Dave isn't an inextricable part of your life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-66639330797525398202008-12-16T17:11:00.000-06:002008-12-16T17:11:00.000-06:00I stopped by via a link from Dr Isis' blog (to...I stopped by via a link from Dr Isis' blog (to a different post) & have some insight to offer into the Dave problem; my father interacts in exactly the same way, and it's exactly as infuriating if you don't realize what's happening.<BR/><BR/>He does the same thing -- says intentionally inflammatory things to "stir things up" (his words) and provoke a reaction -- because he doesn't do so well with normal reason-based argument, so if he can get his opponents (i.e., everyone) riled up, he can critique the high emotion. "This can be a learning experience for them," he thinks.<BR/><BR/>He preaches a lot about the importance of controlling your emotions, "sticks & stones", etc. -- partly because he wants to believe it (*he* is very easily wounded by words) but also because it absolves him of blame. If other people get upset -- and even remain upset, months later, because of the horrific things he's said -- that means *they* have something to learn about not being ruled by their emotions. They should grow up and get therapy or something.<BR/><BR/>He appeals to the importance of "facts" constantly -- demanding multiple & detailed supporting examples for any critique you might offer (though it's impossible to get through the first one without him changing the subject) but at the same time never giving actual *relevant* facts to support his own arguments -- just overwhelmingly long streams of tangential crap -- and he'll readily move the goalposts if called on it.<BR/><BR/>He seems to have an overwhelming need to be "the expert" in any discussion. If he is clearly in over his head, he will do his best to change the subject. If he at least understands part of the discussion, he assumes his place at the head of the table and starts the process of educating all present -- if you say something he doesn't grasp, he assumes it's irrelevant. If you try to offer more advanced information he will argue with you (using the techniques above) until you give him back the floor. Because every conversation is yet another opportunity for *you* to learn from *him* -- there is no situation where he will sit back and listen to you with interest -- if he listens for a moment, it's only because he's waiting for one of his keywords to pop up, so he can start another lecture. He's quite distinguished-looking, mind you, so people new to the game find themselves trapped for a very long time, too timid/respectful to have any chance at all in diverting him.<BR/><BR/>I notice quite a few behavioral overlaps with Dave's comment here, and his comments in the battle in question.<BR/><BR/>If I'm right, Dave doesn't *think* he's a troll, though he functions as one. Perhaps he wanted to spice things up a bit with some non-PC truthiness (because you need someone to be provocative to have a "real" discussion). Perhaps he didn't (and probably still doesn't) realize how obviously weak his grasp of logic is -- because he usually relies on his bag of rhetoric tricks -- and was hurt by the many strongly-worded responses. Surely he deserves more respect than that. And so the offensive defense begins. And the last-word-ism. Etc.. And even when he draws you on by seeming to concede some things... trust me, that will all be forgotten the next time the topic comes up.<BR/><BR/>And clearly he *still* doesn't understand that you are not all arrayed about his feet like little children hungry for his wisdom, but currently pouting because he phrased a few things a bit roughly.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, many of the responses in that thread and in this discussion here gave me a nice warm feeling. I wish some of you folks had been around when I was growing up!<BR/><BR/>But the solution is to notice the pattern, and stop it cold before the real escalation and 20-car pileup begins. He's not going to learn anything (I submit the comment above as exhibit A), and the wreckage is brutal, every time. If you're moderating a discussion and someone pulls a Dave, it's your choice to allow the first comment or two (and the resulting backlash) but if so I strongly recommend just inserting a polite note at that point that "the Dave" has been closed out of the remainder of the discussion, and a virtual air-freshener has been sprayed, so useful conversation may resume.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-71790265953703613352008-12-15T19:05:00.000-06:002008-12-15T19:05:00.000-06:00Silver Fox, I admit, I figured out what you were t...Silver Fox, I admit, I figured out what you were talking about some time after I left my comment. No worries, though.Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-17283745282891678962008-12-15T07:59:00.000-06:002008-12-15T07:59:00.000-06:00Stephanie, much earlier, when I mentioned tyring t...Stephanie, much earlier, when I mentioned tyring to have the last word, I meant that could be an additional strategy of a hijacker - I didn't mean that you or any other of the reasonable people posting should try that - I don't think *that* game could ever be won with a hijacker (except by the blog owner deleting comments!). Sorry for getting back to that so late - I've had some trouble commenting recently (so much stuff, too little time!).Silver Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03131032620978696727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-80305230892390583982008-12-14T22:33:00.000-06:002008-12-14T22:33:00.000-06:00Daedalus, remind me not to get on your bad side. :...Daedalus, remind me not to get on your bad side. :)Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-30796505137085059332008-12-14T17:44:00.000-06:002008-12-14T17:44:00.000-06:00Wasting other people’s time is another strategy of...Wasting other people’s time is another strategy of sociopaths. Causing strife, difficulties, anxiety, worry, distress; anything that keeps good scientists who are not sociopaths from thinking about and doing science leaves more science for the mediocre scientists who are sociopaths to do.daedalus2uhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10416564922288784455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-84560130590505175372008-12-14T17:14:00.000-06:002008-12-14T17:14:00.000-06:00Hi, ScientistMother. All you said and then some. T...Hi, ScientistMother. All you said and then some. Thanks for stopping by, and I hope the science prospered.<BR/><BR/>Anonymous, you're very welcome. I'm glad to hear this feels like a safer space.Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-89391062174094827642008-12-14T13:39:00.000-06:002008-12-14T13:39:00.000-06:00For the record, I didn't find Dave's very long ran...For the record, I didn't find Dave's very long rants about gender issues much fun. I don't feel like showing all my scars of injustice just so he can 'get it', and after a while I started skipping his contributions because I simply found them way too depressing. I thought it a shame he took up so much room on the blog because there are others with opinions I am much more interested in. It's nice to find a measured, thoughtful discussion (which also feels a bit safer) over here. Thanks StephanieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-49345403061391520842008-12-13T23:33:00.000-06:002008-12-13T23:33:00.000-06:00Oh gosh, I don't get why you female, colored perso...Oh gosh, I don't get why you female, colored person who has faced discrimination and judgment based solely on either your gender, cultural heritage or both don't understand a joke from poor defenseless white male like myself. <BR/><BR/>I have avoided the discussions over at DM's b/c quite frankly getting my science done was far more important then giving this guy a comment. However he seems to be moving all over the place leaving comments, giving sage advice. Sorry Dave, I don't need advice from you. I need you to learn to actually think about and how you're saying it.<BR/>Nor do I think Juniper needs your type of advice. <BR/>Why should women have to change? why don't you stop being so closed minded and judgmentalScientistMotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02540317551396323613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-61590610851135737712008-12-13T22:13:00.000-06:002008-12-13T22:13:00.000-06:00D. C., I read that as one of those statements that...D. C., I read that as one of those statements that ultimately boils down to, "Look what I can get away with saying because it's a joke. Don't you get it? Yeesh, I <I>said</I> it was a joke. (<I>No</I> sense of humor.)" When it isn't funny, all that's left is the hostility.Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-83910141914728969922008-12-13T18:19:00.000-06:002008-12-13T18:19:00.000-06:00I can totally see how one could misinterpret [...]...<I>I can totally see how one could misinterpret [...] "Of course, if this is true then the women scientists reading this must be dumber than most other women"</I><BR/><BR/>Hmmm. I read that as <I>reductio ad absurdem</I>, and looking at the context still don't see any other way to read it.D. C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06515125525097163604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-9469851691011246152008-12-13T06:50:00.000-06:002008-12-13T06:50:00.000-06:00Dude, I think you are missing a very important poi...Dude, I think you are missing a very important point here. No one gives a flying fuck whether you're earnest, joking, learning, growing, spurring discussion, or whathefuckever. The problem is that your long-winded masturbatory gibbering, which seems to always end with some kind of exhortation to people that they are doing whatever it is that they are doing wrong, is WASTING OTHER PEOPLE'S VALUABLE TIME. No one wants to show up at what should be an interesting discussion and have to wade through thousands of words of your inane narcissistic fuckwittitude. Get your own motherfucking blog and knock yourself out. But stop acting like such a motherfucking asshole in other people's spaces.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-75758709060666213252008-12-12T22:15:00.000-06:002008-12-12T22:15:00.000-06:00Dr. Isis, that makes me very happy. Sleep well ton...Dr. Isis, that makes me very happy. Sleep well tonight, please.Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-49916648626150067362008-12-12T20:29:00.000-06:002008-12-12T20:29:00.000-06:00Juniper said: "how hard is it to fucking apologize...Juniper said: <I>"how hard is it to fucking apologize?</I><BR/><BR/>I could apologize in the way you ask, but it would be insincere. The most inflammatory things I said were poorly marked sarcasm and jokes. I've made classic newbie internet message board mistakes. I'm sorry for that in the sense that if I weren't such a dork, I no doubt would have known that my brand of sarcasm and humor completely falls flat in this type of forum. DM rightly has chastised me, but I think he can back me up based on posts he's pulled (yes, he <I>is</I> actively moderating) that I really am joking and deliberately pushing buttons some of the time. It doesn't work in this venue, obviously.<BR/><BR/>So I'm not going to apologize for being mean to Isis, because I really wasn't trying to be mean. What I do honestly apologize for is any undercutting of confidence my words may have given (as in 'oh crap the world really IS full of misogynist assholes'), because that doesn't help anyone and really is not anything I'd like to see happen. Toward that end, obviously, I should have said that I recognize that fathers are also responsible for child-rearing and other chores that often unfairly burden mothers or something like that instead of calling Isis' husband a loser. Etc. I am not used to being so explicit. People who know me in real life know. I assumed people could easily laugh off some corrosive internet remarks, or recognize it as the goofy playful debate I meant it to be. I recognize now that I was wrong -- not through a fault of anyone reading my words, but rather my misunderstanding of the audience and medium. So I'm sorry -- not for what I said, but in the way I said it. <BR/><BR/>Still, I do think it's an important that women break out of traditional gender barriers instead of using them as an excuse. In that regard, I am not convinced Isis has done so. She can do better.<BR/><BR/>At this point, assuming you are still reading, you may be parsing my motivation in posting this. What motivated me to finally say something here was this:<BR/><BR/><I>I was too embarrassed to say that in front of a bunch of PIs."</I><BR/><BR/>This actually shocked and hurt me and made me feel sorry. Juniper: NEVER feel embarrassed to say what you think. Especially in an anonymous venue like this. It's what the internet is best for. You can fling out crazy things and see how people respond without the worry and residue these things bring in real life. Call it sociopathic (it sort of is), but it's also liberating. What I liked, Juniper, is that you of everyone called me out in the harshest most direct way possible. It was really your words on Isis' blog that made me think "Holy crap. I've really pissed some people off. They're not just pretending." DM can unfortunately vouch for the fact that it didn't completely kill my tendency toward inflammatory jabs. But it did make me think. So say what you think. Always. That's what your brain is for. If you keep it all in, what good is it? You have a blog. Don't let the blog be an excuse to not let loose your ambition in real life too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-86011818453556135422008-12-12T16:56:00.000-06:002008-12-12T16:56:00.000-06:00Dr. Isis is totally over this. She and DM have no...Dr. Isis is totally over this. She and DM have not kissed (he forbade it), but they have made up and are totally bff again. At the end of the day it is important to remember who your allies truly are. DrugMonkey and PhysioProf do have a track record for being advocates for women. We may have skirmished on this issue, but it was resolved fairly peacefully because that's the way adult discourse happens (in contrast the Dave-style). This is a perfect example of how two people can have a grown-up disagreement over a gender issue and have it be resolved without going nuclear.Isis the Scientisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13330006497489235490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-35337707008616113182008-12-12T16:46:00.000-06:002008-12-12T16:46:00.000-06:00drdrA, please see again the part about sociopaths ...drdrA, please see again the part about sociopaths splitting communities. The fact is, he set up a situation that needed to be dealt with if anything productive was going to happen. <BR/><BR/>Isis and CPP decided to attack. He reacted in a way to encourage bigger attacks. You, Becca and DM chose to engage civilly, possibly more civilly than you would have had their been no attacks. He sucked up to you in a way that made the whole thing look much cozier than it was. <BR/><BR/>He played it. He pushed to exaggerate both strategies so they came into conflict. Please don't let his created conflict become yours. Please.<BR/><BR/>And yes, I'm not just speaking to you on this.Stephanie Zvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15182490110208080002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-32966235496295584022008-12-12T16:30:00.000-06:002008-12-12T16:30:00.000-06:00Ah- ok, I never gave Dave a pass- DM never gave Da...Ah- ok, I never gave Dave a pass- DM never gave Dave a pass. <BR/><BR/>And for the record- the discussion did need de-flaming because comment threads where people just spend 200 comments calling each other assholes are not useful. I stop paying attention, and it pisses me off when a discussion that I care about devolves into pointless mud-slinging. It might make you feel better- but it doesn't accomplish anything. If this were my kids I wouldn't care who started it. I would tell them to knock it off and move on to the important stuff. <BR/><BR/>Furthermore, in this case we had exhibit A - an actual live silliness spewing subject- to actually provide a live demo for the discussion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-64403212913841755032008-12-12T15:51:00.000-06:002008-12-12T15:51:00.000-06:00Greg, getting reasonable people to fight with each...Greg, getting reasonable people to fight with each other is something that sociopaths are quite good at. That is one of their major tactics.daedalus2uhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10416564922288784455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-26261900247751084132008-12-12T15:49:00.000-06:002008-12-12T15:49:00.000-06:00OK, honestly: haven't we all at some point wished ...OK, honestly: haven't we all at some point wished that we had <I>screened</I> a certain comment, or at least asked the author to rephrase certain parts ?<BR/>I for one admit that I am not ready to have anyone (especially anonymous) write just whatever on my blog and let it pass. <BR/>If I am not comfortable with something that is said in a comment, either I am going to contact the author (if I can) and ask for revisions, or I am not going to accept the comment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38764987.post-82311928608131207922008-12-12T11:07:00.000-06:002008-12-12T11:07:00.000-06:00Isis in that case let me offer my apologies. I cle...Isis in that case let me offer my apologies. I clearly gave the impression that I was head-patting an assclown and thereby endorsing his right to say some stupid ass and hurtful shit. <BR/><BR/>For the record, I do not endorse the stupid ass and hurtful shit. <BR/><BR/>I also apologize for the resulting implication that I was saying that the flaming and evisceration of stupid ass and hateful comments was unwarranted. I was not. I should have preceded such words with "well justified" and "appropriate" and the like to make this clear.Drugmonkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05414353815962084981noreply@blogger.com